EMILY KWONG, HOST:
Achievement in casting will be the newest prize at the Oscars in March, and the nominees are out. They include the casting directors of "Sinners"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SINNERS")
DELROY LINDO: (As Delta Slim) Who the boy?
MICHAEL B JORDAN: (As Stack) This is my little cousin, Preacherboy Sammie - happens to be the finest blues player in all the Delta.
KWONG: ..."One Battle After Another"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER")
LEONARDO DICAPRIO: (As Bob) No, I'm not going with him. I'm supposed to go with you. I need you, brother. Sensei, Sensei, Sensei, please.
BENICIO DEL TORO: (As Sensei Sergio St. Carlos) Courage, Bob. Courage.
KWONG: ...And "Marty Supreme."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MARTY SUPREME")
GWYNETH PALTROW: (As Kay Stone) Do you make money this little table tennis thing?
TIMOTHEE CHALAMET: (As Marty Mauser) Not yet.
PALTROW: (As Kay Stone) Do you have a job?
CHALAMET: (As Marty Mauser) No.
KWONG: But what does achievement in casting even look like? How do you find the right faces to tell a story on screen? We were wondering that, too. So we've gathered our own cast, starring Glen Weldon and Linda Holmes. They host NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast. Hi, Glen. Hi, Linda.
LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Hello.
GLEN WELDON, BYLINE: Hey.
KWONG: Hey, so, before we even get to the nominees, let's just talk about what casting directors even do because it does seem like the type of job movie fans don't necessarily notice unless things go catastrophically wrong.
WELDON: Right. And it's great that it's getting some attention finally...
HOLMES: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Because, as you say, casting is an invisible craft, and like a lot of things in the industry, it's about relationships. The most important one is the one a casting director has with their director. So everyone knows exactly what's being looked for. But it's also about having a good memory, right? If they see someone who isn't right for this part they're casting today but they hold onto them, maybe two or three years later, they're casting something else, they think that actor should get a shot at it. That's what it's about.
KWONG: Well, as a movie watcher, what do you look for in a cast or in an ensemble?
WELDON: I mean, it's chemistry, which sounds like a cop-out answer, but it's what's unique. What do these particular actors bring to the various characters? If they make so distinct an impression that you cannot imagine any other actors in those roles, that's what we're talking about here.
KWONG: Yeah.
HOLMES: Yeah, what I tend to admire most is casts where everybody is used well across different kinds of roles. If you look at something like "Sinners," you have a really interesting mix of casting decisions. Obviously, there's Michael B. Jordan, who's very brilliant in this dual role.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SINNERS")
JORDAN: (As Smoke) Ain't no boys here.
(As Stack) Just grown men with grown-men money.
(As Smoke) And grown-men bullets.
HOLMES: But if you look at the other folks, on the one hand, you have Miles Caton, the young actor who plays Preacherboy, who is pretty much totally new to film acting.
KWONG: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SINNERS")
MILES CATON: (As Sammie Moore) I'm Sammie Moore. I'm a sharecropper from Sunflower Plantation.
HOLMES: On the other hand, Delroy Lindo is a gifted and versatile veteran actor everybody admires. So, you know, everybody in that group kind of becomes the only person you can really picture in the part.
KWONG: Let's talk about the casting director nominees. It is the first ever in the history of the Oscars. Who is in contention?
HOLMES: So it is Nina Gold, who cast "Hamnet"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HAMNET")
JESSIE BUCKLEY: (As Agnes) Tell me a story.
PAUL MESCAL: (As Will) What story would you like?
BUCKLEY: (As Agnes) Something that moves you.
HOLMES: ...Jennifer Venditti, who did "Marty Supreme," Cassandra Kulukundis, who did "One Battle After Another," Gabriel Domingues, who did "The Secret Agent"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE SECRET AGENT")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, non-English language spoken).
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, non-English language spoken).
HOLMES: ...And Francine Maisler, who did "Sinners," as we already talked about.
KWONG: Nice. Is there a film you wish were nominated for best casting that wasn't?
HOLMES: You know, I think I might have gone with "Weapons," which is a sort of scary movie about a bunch of different people being menaced and these kids who disappear.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WEAPONS")
JOSH BROLIN: (As Archer) I don't understand at all. Why just her classroom? Why only hers?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Where are our children?
HOLMES: And I think I would pick it for two reasons. One is the fact that there are a lot of, I think, unexpected choices in that cast, including Amy Madigan, who got an Oscar nomination for a role that - I don't want to spoil for you, but I don't think people necessarily would have imagined her playing in the abstract.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WEAPONS")
AMY MADIGAN: (As Gladys) I'm Alex's aunt, and his mom is my baby sister.
BENEDICT WONG: (As Marcus) OK, so you're not his legal guardian.
MADIGAN: (As Gladys) Well, no, that would be his parents, of course.
HOLMES: The other reason is that the casting director of "Weapons" is a legendary casting director named Allison Jones. Even if you don't know the name, you have probably seen a great deal of her work. Here's a partial list of her film credits...
KWONG: OK, I'm ready.
HOLMES: ..."Barbie," "Lady Bird," "Book Smart," "Eighth Grade," "Spy," "Bridesmaids," "Superbad," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin."
KWONG: Oh.
HOLMES: She's on a very short list of, to me, the most influential people in pop culture, as far as I'm concerned, across the board, doing anything. And I think a nomination here would be great.
KWONG: Those are some iconic films, and to know more about the person behind it is really cool. And I notice Allison Jones - I mean, it sounds like a lot of women are casting directors.
HOLMES: Yeah. Yeah.
KWONG: Is that true in Hollywood?
HOLMES: Yeah, it is. It's generally true. The number that I see thrown around is 75% of casting directors are women. I don't know if that's exactly right, but I think it is one of the more female-dominated crafts in film.
KWONG: Yeah. Well, fabulous to see a light shown on this part of the industry, the casting directors getting their due. So what do you think voters will be looking for?
WELDON: Well, I mean, it's the first one, and nobody knows, which is fun, right?
KWONG: (Laughter) Yeah.
WELDON: I mean, there is no established criteria here, so all the different voters are going to be bringing their own, basically. I think a lot of them - maybe most of them - are going to think of this as a kind of ensemble award, you know, like the movies with lots of stars.
KWONG: Oh, yeah.
WELDON: But I do think some of them are going to think, OK, which film introduced the biggest discovery to me, the new face - right? - the star of tomorrow? But let's be real - Oscar voters are lazy. A lot of them are just going to go by which film got the most acting nominations? And both "One Battle" and "Sinners" check all three of those boxes. But I don't know. "One Battle" got one more acting nomination than "Sinners" did. So that's the one I'd take in the Oscar pool. If you wanted to read the tea leaves of what made it through the nomination process, it really does seem that what the casting directors are hoping gets recognized on Oscar night is something beyond just slapping the biggest famous name in the biggest role. They want to reward the movie as a whole. Now, it's not an exact science. It's vibes, more than it's anything else. But then there's never been anything objective about selecting, like, the best film or the best actor of the year. At the end of the day, the Oscars are vibes. They always have been.
KWONG: The Oscars are vibes. That's a good takeaway.
HOLMES: Yeah.
KWONG: Linda, what about you?
HOLMES: I agree with Glen. I think Oscar categories don't always do what you expect anyway. I don't think the expansion of the best picture field necessarily played out the way that people thought it would.
WELDON: Yeah.
HOLMES: It's created space for, like, a lot of foreign films, which isn't necessarily what people thought it was going to do. So listen, I think there have been TV casting Emmys for a long time. What tends to win there is exactly what Glen said. It's a well-rounded ensemble.
KWONG: If this Oscar had been around in the past, are there movies you think should have won for best casting?
HOLMES: Yeah, I would tend to think about something like "The Princess Bride," which has...
KWONG: Oh, yes.
HOLMES: ...Such a big ensemble, including some really offbeat picks, like Andre the Giant...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE PRINCESS BRIDE")
ANDRE THE GIANT: (As Fezzik) You never said anything about killing anyone.
WALLACE SHAWN: (As Vizzini) I've hired you to help me start a war. It's a prestigious line of work with a long and glorious tradition.
HOLMES: ...But also, beloved veterans, Billy Crystal, Carol Kane, Peter Falk. And again, the young leads, Robin Wright and Cary Elwes, were not really famous in movies at that time. Neither was Fred Savage, who played the little kid. So there's great deployment of everybody. And by the way, we talked about women. Those casting directors, whose names are Janet Hirshenson and Jane Jenkins, were hugely influential for a lot of - many years - worked with Ron Howard and Rob Reiner and Chris Columbus. And so, again, lots of really, really prominent women in this field.
WELDON: Yeah.
KWONG: Shoutout. Glen?
WELDON: Emily, I'm a very basic gay man, so I'm going to go with the most basic gay answer, which is "All About Eve" from 1950.
KWONG: (Laughter) Oh, nice.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ALL ABOUT EVE")
BETTE DAVIS: (As Margo Channing) You've heard of her great interest in the theater.
GEORGE SANDERS: (As Addison DeWitt) Oh, we have that in common.
DAVIS: (As Margo Channing) Then you two must have a long talk.
ANNE BAXTER: (As Eve Harrington) I'm afraid Mr. DeWitt would find me boring before too long.
MARILYN MONROE: (As Miss Casswell) You won't bore him, honey. You won't even get a chance to talk.
WELDON: In my defense, you remove any single actor from that cast - Bette Davis, Anne Baxter, George Sanders, Marilyn Monroe, Celeste Holm - you remove any one, you screw up the entire fuel mixture. It doesn't work without the entire cast acting in concert. And that's what we're talking about. That's what a casting Oscar should recognize.
KWONG: It's like a math equation. You can't take any of the group (ph).
WELDON: (Laughter).
KWONG: You know what my - what I would award a casting?
HOLMES: Tell me.
KWONG: "Lord Of The Rings."
WELDON: Oh, this is - (laughter).
KWONG: For I am a very basic nerd.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING")
ORLANDO BLOOM: (As Legolas) Have you heard nothing Lord Elrond just said? The ring must be destroyed.
JOHN RHYS-DAVIES: (As Gimli) And I suppose you think you're the one to do it.
SEAN BEAN: (As Boromir) And if we fail, what then? What happens when Sauron takes back what is his?
KWONG: And I...
WELDON: No, no, this is exactly it. This is - you're talking my language.
KWONG: What I love about the movie is there is a casting scene in it.
WELDON: Yep.
KWONG: They have to form the Fellowship and decide who goes.
WELDON: (Laughter) It's true.
HOLMES: Again, big group, big ensemble, lots of performances people liked...
WELDON: Yep.
HOLMES: ...Mix of new faces and familiar faces - that's what you want.
WELDON: Exactly. Everybody brought the heat. That's the important thing.
KWONG: Well, good luck at your Oscar watch parties.
WELDON: Thank you (laughter).
KWONG: And I hope you win your respective pools. That is Glen Weldon and Linda Holmes. They host NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast. Check it out. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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